Interview with Rafał Sonik

WO: These talks are intended to show the readership the role of passion and demonstrate how passion can help discover some specific skills which may next be moved between different spheres of life: from sports to business, from business to sports, from music to a creative business. The frequently asked question goes: how to bring it all together in a smart way while building your own world.
How can we all get something extra out of it while sharing things with others? This is the topic of my conversation with Rafał Sonik.

KASPROWY MOUNTAIN

WO: Rafał, “quad rally driver” is most likely the first thing that comes to people’s minds when they hear your name. But you actually started out as… a skier. What was the role of mountaineers and Kasprowy Mountain in your life, both professionally and in sports?

RS: The truth is that I grew up in the mountains. For many years, I would spend all my free time there, from autumn to spring. Back then, everyday reality was far from bright. When you met in the Tatras, with your friends, you were in the very heart of beauty: amazing mountains and true winters of that day, on the one hand, and a host of people from different walks of life and places, each with a story to tell, on the other hand. This created between many of us some kind of intimacy which has withstood the test of time. Kasprowy is a kind of the Polish tower of Babel. This is the only mountain peak that is challenging for both skiers and climbers. It definitely stands out among other skiing slopes. For dozens of years it was a meeting place for a variegated group of people: presidents and Communist dignitaries, even Nazi dignitaries before them, and simple people who’d choose Kasprowy as a place for their Sunday excursion, a source of simple pleasure. You just had to get to Kuźnice district, queue up for the lift and go up. Kasprowy was like a melting pot where people who were curious of others crossed their paths. Today, you can still go there and meet one of your friends or skiing competitors. We often go a year or even longer without seeing each other but when we meet we feel as if we’ve just talked yesterday. It’s a great feeling, though very nostalgic of course, because we are all getting older.

WO: Kasprowy was also exceptional because you had to make an effort to get there, use every opportunity at hand. What was so attractive to make you come back again and again?

RS: I think the reason we kept coming back was professional or semi-amateur sport activity: after all, not all of us were competitive skiers. We all felt privileged to be in such an unusual setting, utterly different from our everyday life. Just to remind you, I was coming of age when the Martial Law was passed in Poland, and in those days Kasprowy Mountain was simply very hard-to-access area, if not banned for most of the population. As you know, the harder something is to reach and the more forbidden, the more compelling it becomes. I will never forget how many times we had to hide from law enforcement authorities who would search and apprehend people with no permit to stay in the border area and in Zakopane. We would hide in Kuźnice many times, buried in snow mounds on the roof of the ski-lift building. I once found there a piece of rope with a lead ending and a wiry cinch. Unfortunately, I don’t have it any more. I’ve lost it somewhere, along the way, but it was surely meant for a fight, maybe a scuffle with the ZOMO (riot police).

WO: Can you imagine that a similar space of attraction is created in your work? Or maybe you’ve had a similar experience already?

RS: Yes. I think that a similar setting can be recreated in niche start-ups, extremely ambitious ones. Start-ups which hope to find their market in places where nobody or almost nobody can see it.

WO: What is needed to make the idea of such a start-up really fly? For some this is so challenging that giving up is the only option…

RS: You will never succeed if you just give up on things that are challenging, whatever the domain. I believe that the greatest joy and satisfaction comes once you’ve engaged into something apparently undoable or extremely challenging at the least, and at some point you realize that this is nothing more but another task to do.

 

ENTREPRENEUR

WO: What came first – the enchantment with this mystic place that Kasprowy Mountain was, and its inaccessibility, or the opportunity to make money in such an incredible spot, while enjoying it and having fun?

RS: It all started with the fact that I could afford coming back to Zakopane, and then to Kasprowy. When I was fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen, every time I had to ask my parents for permission, and for cash, of course. The money I needed was quite significant and with time I realized that I didn’t have the right to expect them to pay, that they could refuse to help me financially and I’d have to accept it. This was the moment we’ve just touched upon;, when the toughest challenge can become the most interesting and attractive thing to do. In my case it was about gaining my financial independence from my parents. I lived thinking what to do to make sure that they had no financial worries; after all, what was fun and pleasure for me was a source of stress for them. Quite naturally, and maybe by chance, I made it work by combining my passion and the source of necessary income. As a teenager I started fixing and selling skis, and all the money I made I spent on skiing. I was able to finance my own ski trips.

WO: OK, so now we’re in a moment in time when Rafał Sonik makes regular ski trips and believes that he has attained some sort of stability, and combined business with pleasure…

RS: Well, it wasn’t real stability because I didn’t have a stable source of income. It was seasonal and task-paid. At that time, my business was just a bundle of “case by case” transactions. If I had made a mistake at any point or if had been unable to get self-disciplined and organized, my income would have been far from stable, if not lost at all.

WO: What is the most important lesson that you’ve learnt then, the one you still use, knowingly or unknowingly? Now, in your adult life and in serious business, do you have moments when you say ‘it’s a bit like then’, and only money and stakes in sports and in business, or even in private life have changed?

RS: I think that I took all those lessons, and certainly most of them exactly in those days. The most important thing I learned at the beginning of my journey was that high quality should come first. The-then situation helped me understand that the higher and better the quality of what I do, the higher are my chances of success. Lots of people sold skis of average quality and not well fitted, and I was one of the few who instinctively – I had no such awareness at all – chose precision and reliability. My goal was to offer the customer the best of what was available. Because of this I once had a really interesting situation, on the Slovakian side of the Tatras, on Chopok Mountain. One day around fifty people were lining to take a cable lift, and more than thirty of them had skis bought from me. This was in 1986, maybe 1987, all of them were much older than me, so they were not the beginners but customers with high requirements who chose decent, high-quality equipment.

WO: Did you rely on teamwork or did you act alone then?

RS: I was a team player from the very beginning. As I’ve mentioned, my job was seasonal. I bought skis in spring and sold them in autumn and winter. In order to be able to offer more and more high quality equipment I had to go to ski markets in Warsaw, Katowice, and Kraków in November, December, and January. I couldn’t do it alone. I had to transport the equipment from Kraków to Katowice, or to Warsaw, collect what was left after the sales were over, settle the accounts. From the start I hired quite a few people. What’s more, from spring to autumn I had to prepare several dozens, then several hundred pairs of skis – these were my peak selling figures – and I needed to work with all available ski repair workshops. At the start I did the refitting myself but later on I outsourced the service at ski workshops in Szaflary, Zakopane, Szczyrk or Bielsko. It was fantastic because I offered them an opportunity to grow. For the first time in their history these repair shops did not have to close for the spring-summer break. After the ski season was over, they finished their assignments for individual customers and moved on to work only for me, for about six months, from April to October-November, every year. During the first five or six years, from 1980 until about 1986, I bought up more and more pieces of used equipment and reconditioned it for sale. Later on, until the late 1980s, I also bought a lot of brand new skis and fittings. I became a large wholesaler, offering mostly sports accessories, clothes, track suits, and later also electronics.

WO: Do you remember from those days someone who made the biggest impression on you, whether good or bad? Someone who made you do things differently, maybe improve, or stop doing something altogether? Someone who was a mentor (even if you did not realize that), someone you could trust?

RS: No. At that time of my life I didn’t have any mentors. I was personally responsible for the whole “production” cycle. However, in my core business area of servicing and renovation, I did have an associate I chose myself. His name was Witek Lercel, he was older and far more experienced than me. For years, he ran a workshop at Skłodowska-Curie Street in Kraków and he smoothly shifted from running his own shop to doing business with me, on a larger scale. We are still friends with Witek, and working with him taught me a lot.

WO: Good. Let’s move on. Rafał Sonik closes a chapter in his life. The sports business operates at full speed and you already have another start-up in mind. At some point you become a real estate businessman, and you strike deals with large groups, like McDonald’s and BP. Didn’t it go against your previous job which was a blend of business and passion? Are you able to do things that you don’t like?

RS: Well, I don’t think that life is ever so great to let you do only things that you like. Luckily for me, things I liked less were often somehow connected with what I actually did like and wanted to do. In any set of tasks needed to complete an economic or business cycle there are some duties that you really don’t fancy. For instance, I didn’t liked accounting or reproductive tasks. Somewhere in the mid-1990s, in the process of preparation of BP agreement, I was not involved in operations because it was kind of reproductive. It’s true that I wanted to streamline my time management, but I was sure that my coworkers would do it better and more reliably than me.

MISSION

WO: What could young people learn from you, apart from courage, curiosity of nature and the country or the wish to be together? I mean things triggered in you by the Kasprowy adventure. What would you like to instill in them?

RS: I would like them to make use of their achievements to do something for the sake of others. For me this is the key value behind work and passion. Not everyone has this need to share or do things for a specific individual or group, or to work pro bono. I discovered quite early on that I was only fully satisfied when – along with my daily tasks – I could do things that are socially meaningful. Actually, I realized that by accident: the first McDonald’s restaurant in Kraków was located at 55 Floriańska Street, in a building that had been bequeathed to missionary priests by a dying childless woman. She wanted it to be used for charity work. The income from this real property allowed to create SIEMACHA – an association which provides assistance to young people who need guidance in life. It’s goal is to strengthen mutual trust, social ties, civic engagement and feeling of responsibility for oneself and for others. In 1993, we found that the income from this project and from new commercial properties could be of great use. The money was spent to help children whose parents were struggling to adjust to the transition from the socialist to the capitalist economy. Socialism meant poverty but took care of everyone, while capitalism definitely opened more opportunities for people who were proactive but had nothing to offer to those who were used to get their ‘fair share’ however active they were professionally. They were left behind. Children whose parents had difficulties adjusting to this new reality started to show up at SIEMACHA, and I showed up there too, as a sponsor and a partner, first to finance its reactivation and next its current operations. This gave me immense satisfaction especially that my involvement was not limited to pure finance. I was active in many different ways. For example, on the day of Poland’s accession to the European Union I talked to children and teens at SIEMACHA about what that change could possibly mean. I was involved in various projects organized by the association: renovation and refurbishment of new centers or planning educational and developmental activities for children.

WO: Did you ever think – looking at young people who got involved in projects or inspired by you at SIEMACHA – that they may want something more?

RS: This is what was the most amazing at SIEMACHA. I think it’s probably the same now but back then it was more evident; children whose parents struggled with the new reality or didn’t really seek to adjust, simply wanted more. They had this strong “drive” to get out of apathy and disenchantment with the rapidly changing world in order to lead rather than whine. It was fantastic to see how they strived and still strive for much more than their peers, brought up in the cosiness of more privileged homes. They were underprivileged, often very deprived, but wanted to move forward, grow and develop, learn, look for new opportunities, passions, skills. Back then, the most interesting thing SIEMACHA had to offer were programs to help young people discover their natural talents. Schools have a curriculum which, regardless of its quality, is like a set of hanging “suits” that children are supposed to take in and wear. For some, they would fit like a glove, but for the majority this not the case. At SIEMACHA, kids followed their talents and passions – they picked things that matched their interests from the growing SIEMACHA offer. Of course SIEMACHA did help – pragmatically speaking – with homework or basic school chores, but above all it offered kids the opportunity to discover their inner talents. If you wanted to draw you could draw, if you wanted to hike you hiked! If you liked geography or wished to play an instrument, you could work mainly on that. Young people got organized at SIEMACHA around their interests, passions or strengths. So, if you compared a sample teenage group at SIEMACHA with their more privileged peers, eventually those underprivileged kids achieved more. For one – they tried harder, and secondly – they had more opportunities to discover their talents and passions earlier on.

EMPLOYER

WO: So, you create the space for people who do care, seek and develop their passion, and are able to give more to themselves and their coworkers through a cooperative approach. Are you able to transfer such reflections into your professional life? If yes, how do you go about it?

RS: I think my most valuable hiring experience will be a good example of such “transfer”. I’ve been recruiting people for over thirty years. I hired my first full-time employee in 1986, and since 1990 I have had a large group of staff. So, my most important and valuable experience from hiring people is that if the recruitment process is done carefully, you basically do not have bad hires. Your hires are not simply tasked properly. Therefore, if you are unhappy with their performance, instead of firing them, just reallocate and align their scope of duties and responsibilities. You do it twice, three times until, metaphorically speaking, you find “a suit” that fits best your employee. This is extremely encouraging when you do the induction after the second or maximum the third change into such a fine-tuned scope of tasks. After some time you don’t need words any more. It takes some communication effort to help your employee do their job well but this is just a fraction of what is needed when the fit is not perfect. Just take an example of my mechanic. I realize that this seems like a pretty straightforward job but it’s far from that. It’s really tough. Just remember that my mechanic is responsible not only for quads but for our entire fleet: service vehicles, trailers, accompanying cars. There are several quads – after all, we do not race with one during a year. So we build new ones, take the old ones apart and upgrade them. I communicate with my mechanic once every few weeks. He spends spring in the Arab Emirates, next he’s in Qatar, then he moves to Europe to finally travel to South America. He works in five or six countries in a year, and we compete in eight or ten. I have occasional contacts with him because I know that he does exactly what he loves, just like me. That’s why we understand each other so well. And one more thing: in general, his job is about making sure that I am free from any technical hassles. In rallies, competition is definitely about different things than in basketball, for instance. The basketball player is part of a team, everything is organized for them: accommodation, travel, flights, training sessions, rehab, recovery. Every player is part of a single and large organism – the team – especially if they are top level competitors. It’s just like a corporation where all the details have been worked out. As for us, we build everything on our own. We’re like micro-corporations or micro-businesses which are competitive mainly because of their level of preparation and reliable equipment. In order for me to fight for the World Championship I need a mechanic who is the champion in his area of expertise.

WO: So, you do solid recruitment, you offer a good job, and your hire becomes a world champion in what they do professionally. Here comes another thing – trust – a buzz word in today’s business and sports communities. You trust someone’s talent, their commitment. You place your fortunes into someone’s hands in a way. What is the role of trust?

RS: For me there are two types of trust. First, there is mutual trust that is build between two individuals over time. Here, you really need to be needle-sharp, and every decision, every move, every action has to make sense. Then, there is trust in people around. It’s not build over the years, you rather give people the benefit of the doubt from day one, and then you observe to see if they deserve it or rather undermine it. For example, a mechanic does not get a benefit of the doubt just “for nothing”; he is on a team and needs to work to earn my trust over time with his actions, decisions, conduct and the quality of his work. But for other people around I take a different approach: I trust them by definition just to avoid that feeling that most likely an enemy is hiding behind my back. I’ll treat them as an enemy if they turn to be one but otherwise they are treated as my ally. I just assume that people usually don’t engage in communication to deceive, cheat or steal but rather to get values that we have and they miss. This is a fair game. It’s only when I find out that they play unfairly that I start to supervise, check and verify. My philosophy is simple. If you approach people with distrust which filters your perspective on everything around, you will not sleep well. You’ll keep thinking about bad things they can do to you. But if you approach people with trust you’ll stay awake at night only when you’ve discovered that someone betrayed your trust.

SUCCESS

WO: Following this philosophy in your life, you’ve reached the top in the World Cup and in the Dakar Rally. Did you experience any setbacks on your journey to the top?

RS: Many people have made millions of statements on that topic. Actually, this is probably one of the most intriguing elements in any analysis of the road to success. My experience tells me that a quick success is usually very short-lived. It’s like a flash and most often comes as a result of extremely good luck in some specific circumstances. If your success has been built over time, it’s seldom comes by chance or through a constellation of favorable circumstances. As it has taken some time to build its foundation, chances are greater that it will last longer. Moreover, it’s very likely that in the end it will procure much more satisfaction. Robert Kubica is a good case in point; it took him twenty years to get to Formula 1 racing since he sat behind the wheel for the first time.

WO: And how was it in your case?

RS: I had competed for the first time in the Dakar Rally in 2009, in South America, and I had clearly no experience. All I knew was that I could drive a quad and that I had practiced in similar terrains: the Southwestern US have a geological makeup which is similar to Argentina and Chile. But that was all. The results in the 2009 Dakar Rally came as a surprise to all of us! At the beginning Polish drivers bet whether I would even make it through to the end, and I came third! Being on the podium was like abstraction for me. Just to remind you, there were three of us on the podium that day: Józek Macháček, the only seasoned racer among us who had competed in the Dakar Rally in Africa and had won four times, Marcos Patronelli, who, just like me, didn’t know what the Dakar Rally was about, but was at home and that helped him a lot, and me. I was like an E.T. among them. In the following years – 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 – every time I went there with that experience and knowledge that if I had already came third I could also come second or first. But I didn’t. I should have come back from each Dakar race filled with frustration that I had failed to win. But this is actually the most gripping part of my sports career: I was able to analyze my racing to identify why I had no win. With each new season I got a better understanding of it. In 2012, when I came fourth, in 2013, when I came third, and 2014, when I came second… Every time I felt unhappy that I didn’t win but much stronger in terms of the knowledge of my shortcomings. Finally, in 2014, I analyzed each of the phases and the final outcome and I concluded that I failed to win Dakar not because my competitors were faster but because my mistakes were too many. And from that moment on, from spring through December 2014, what I was up to was my mistakes and their analysis. I managed to identify the key ones which prevented me from winning earlier. I eliminated them in one hundred percent and in 2015 I got my victory.

WO: In the American army they call it ‘after action review’. This is about learning while reflecting ‘without blaming anyone but rather thinking what to do next time to improve’ – this is the key to success of special ops forces in the US Army

RS: In my case, on the mentality level, what looked like a losing streak turned out to be the best road to success. I won the 2015 Dakar Rally after I had carefully analyzed all my mistakes from previous editions. Later, right after Dakar 2015, based on very similar reflections, I won four out of six World Cups. This was the best season I had ever had in this cycle! So what in the hindsight could be seem a non-fulfillment may actually become one of the most precious steps in your journey to achievement

WO: These analyses of failures and mistakes, were they initiated by you or by the team?

RS: This was a great challenge in my relationships with my team. What helped me was probably my DNA… anyway definitely something that was not of my doing. In every rally, especially the Dakar one, after a special section, you have the access part – this is the leg of the road when you drive on asphalt. It may be shorter or longer but it’s very rare that you pull over to the campsite straight from the road. So, what do I do on this asphalt part? Well, first I need some or maybe a dozen minutes of rest, just to calm down and become lucid again. And next I start analyzing my mistakes from the special leg of the rally. When I get to the campsite after one, two, three, or even four hours of driving the access road, I’ve settled all my mistakes with myself. In other words, I have some conclusive evidence on what to do to avoid repeating my mistakes in the future; not only on the following day or the following special leg but also during the next rally. At the campsite I would do the same quality review of others’ jobs. The truth is that people didn’t know that I had such “cycle” of analysis and thought that if I was telling them what went wrong I meant their mistakes and not my performance. After some time, when I realized that, I made it clear to everyone in my core team: ‘For me it’s self-assessment first and your evaluation comes only later’. In order to be strict with their performance I need to start with myself.

WO: I assume that if you do such review properly you get a sort of method to build trust. It’s not a blaming exercise but rather a way for all of you to become better.

RS: The point is not to look for someone to blame. The only goal is for us all to do better, both individually and as a team. This is tremendously important. I’ve just told you about the years 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014 when I would go to the Dakar Rally to win but came back home with no victory. And just remember that self-motivation before the next competition is one thing, but you also need to motivate the whole team. When you go for a competition, you fail and then you come back you feel disappointed. But you are not the only one. Your whole team returns feeling upset that after one year of strenuous work they suffered a setback. In order to motivate your team to be ready for the next year you must show that you did your homework first and that you believe that the next year you will improve. Only then will they believe that that next year they will improve as well.

CHAMPION

WO: For many people today their job is a sort of drudgery. Finding passion in the job is probably the thing that makes you want to go all out.

RS: Passion is one thing, but the quality of what I do is also key. Notice that whatever my image, I do not compete for media attention or visibility with Małysz, Stoch, Kubica, or any other sportsman. But I can still compete with each one of them with the quality of my work. Let’s say that several people like this sit in a row. Many if not most of them would be much more recognizable than me but not everyone could compete with me when it comes to the quality of what I do, in different areas of life. I’m not saying that because I am self-important. I just know that my team has become a symbol of high quality. In August 2015 TVN ran some extensive online research, a survey. One of the questions was “who would you like to be?”. Guess who was ranked first? This was the late summer of 2015…

WO: Hmm, I don’t know…maybe the person I am talking to?

RS: The winner was the most famous Polish youtuber at the time, Wardęga. He had over one hundred million views of his video “Pies pająk” (“Mutant Giant Spider Dog”). For Internet users he was the epitome of a fast-track career.

WO: For me this is fascinating in terms of how people build their self-worth nowadays…

RS: Just note that at that time Wardęga was in the absolute mainstream. He was exactly the age and the type to be consumed and accepted right ahead by the largest group of Internet users. Margaret was ranked second. Why? Because she was a girl from nowhere who also made a career which was lighting fast and stunning by the standards of the day. I came third, and I was in complete upstream. Why? Because I was twice or even three times the age of the average respondent, and I was from a completely different world. Wardęga and Margaret were from their world. They were both teenagers who skyrocketed to fame. Wardęga had over one hundred million views of his videos, meaning he was a true genius! Margaret was a brilliant girl who, at first glance, didn’t have what it takes to become a big star but made a brilliant career instantly. Almost every girl wanted to be like Margaret. Then, among these two on the podium comes someone out of their world, three times older and not an Internet-like type. Why did they choose me as third? A short explanation was provided: because I started from scratch, became successful in life, and when I had it – all by myself, according to the respondents – I was willing to share my success with others. The Internet may generate something like a cloud of words or labels that are ascribed to a specific person.

WO: Yes. The most frequently used words are visually bigger in the cloud, and less frequently used are smaller in size….

RS: Exactly. In my case apart from “pan Rafał” (“Mr. Rafał”), the biggest label was “mistrz” (“champion”). Just notice that I didn’t win championships in football or in Formula I. I was a quad racer – a guy who in principle should have been completely unknown, a niche sportsman.

WO: In my opinion this is a very positive message; what you represent is attractive to those who voted in the survey, whoever these people are. This is all the more good news that respondents were people who’d choose youtubers as figures of authority.

RS: If you look at the most obvious achievements of people ranked on the top of that list I was much more successful because I did not belong to their reality. Internet users usually do not follow motor sports, apart from Formula 1. Since even Formula 1 is not really followed on-line nobody would watch quads and a guy who, to top it all, cannot be your buddy because he is three times older? I am a piece of abstraction to them. I learnt about the survey quite some time later. The presenter of the findings stressed that they were very probing and that answers were provided by advised respondents who knew more about us than we do, the analysts. In other words, people who would need more than seeing another “Spider” video to say that Wardęga is the best. No. That man said – and his presentation was really reliable – that respondents had checked all potential candidates in detail before they answered the question “who would you like to be?”.

WO: On the one hand I can only say ‘Congratulations!’, and on the other, I can assume that there is some hope. You’ve been doing things that you love and you’ve been recognized for that. Things that have been important to you – combining business, sports and charity work – are piece and parcel of your DNA. And you see no reason for getting rid of them, no point in quitting…

RS: You’ve just described something really vital in all of this! However, what made Wardęga and Margaret come first and second was a creation. People who said ‘I would like to be like Wardęga’ saw him through the lenses of his stunningly successful “Spider Dog” videos, and most probably less stunning but still quite big successes of his earlier productions. They did not make their decision based on what they knew about Wardęga himself. However, people who replied ‘I would like to be like Rafał Sonik’ were much more focused on who I am rather than on any spectacular achievements or creations of mine. In general, our goal – mine and my team – is not to make any shows for the public. If we make a presentation we don’t say ‘Hmm, wouldn’t this look great if we made it into a good story’, but we are more like ‘OK, what was it really like? How to tell that true story?’.

EPILOGUE

WO: Ultimately, a true story is the most credible story. Your stories are the accounts of blood, sweat, tears, satisfaction, and teamwork. You have a pool of real-life stories to tell, whether it’s business, your charity work or sports. You don’t need any creations.

RS: To sum up this period of my life when I was more aware of what I did, the last twenty or thirty years… I believe that you actually don’t get this awareness when you’re eighteen but much later. What is the most terrific for me is that I don’t need to make creations or piece things out. Now, I don’t see the need to add form over substance. I simply choose the form that seems to be the most adequate to the substance.

WO: During this conversation I hear a sportsman who is used to effort, hard and rigorous work, and to an extensive self-assessment. There is one recurrent topic in my interviews with sportspeople: what to do when the career is over? You have your own business and you know how to manage it. You move smoothly between sports and business and vice versa. But there are sportspeople who after the end of their career miss adrenaline and trainings, and struggle to find their way outside sports. How to prepare for this life change? What in your personality can help build a life after sports?

RS: I have no idea how to do that. I’ll say even more; this may turn out to be an even bigger challenge than fighting for the next World Cup. Of course you can try to become a mentor, coach, there are lots of people who choose such path, maybe even most of them. But, you see, I have no answer yet because for me there is no life outside the world of sports. I don’t know what life would be like if I were to quit competitive sport. I could picture myself shifting to a sport that could be practiced at a later age in order to postpone that challenge of building a “new life”, but today I have no answer to that question. For now this is for me perhaps one of the very few questions with no well-thought and credible answer.

WO: What could help relay your experience as a seasoned sportsman and businessman to a young sportsman, a non-sportsman, or a start-up founder, all living in an increasingly digitalized world? Do you see any options to connect that? To foster such mutual learning between the two?

RS: I don’t know. I think that today’s world is so profoundly different from the one that we lived in ten, fifteen, or twenty years ago that any advice or solution would necessarily be far from perfect. Personality may be a common denominator linking these two worlds; if you have a chance to find a passion – whether it’s a computer keyboard, a tactile screen or e-sport – you’ll really go far. But if you are unable to find your inside passion, you’ll always remain in the background or a part of such background.

WO: Rafał, thank you for a very inspiring conversation!

Passion2Value The concept of conversations and projects based on the combination of passions and values from various fields. By working in a specific setting, exercising or developing your passions, e.g. in sports or music, based on broader knowledge and skills from other disciplines, you can learn something as an academic discipline. You can create valuable things and enjoy yourself, at the same time.